Pai'Na: Alignment Poll & Discussion

[Wounded_Lion]

Votes and discussion are welcome and encouraged!

- Pai'Na is the half-Drow Druid caretaker of the spider nest beneath the graveyard in BG2.

- In both an unmodded installation and a BG2 Fixpack installation, Pai'Na is True Neutral (NN).  This is most likely so because (without tweak mods) True Neutral is the only alignment allowed to Druids and Druid kits.

- Morrow Gate currently allows NG, NN, and NE Druids and Druid kits.  Divine Remix currently allows NG, LN, NN, CN, and NE Druids and Druid kits.  Morrow Gate will likely adopt the Divine Remix scheme in its next release.

- All game rules concerning alignment could be ignored if desired given the unique nature of NPCs.

- I favor a NN, CN, or NE interpretation of Pai'Na (but am curious about public opinion).  The character will likely favor friendship/romance with Neutral and/or Evil PCs.

- Please stay on topic!  Future polls/posts will address other aspects of Pai'Na NPC.

aWL

EDIT: clarity, more descriptive title

[Zulrik]

If history has taught us anything, its that the biggest, dumbest and ugliest monster you can fathem can, and will, eventualy make any lady swoon to their affections, and erase their primevil lifestyle in favor of a hearty relationship and a few babies.

Now, the reality is, killing dragons and possibly even a few family members on the way (when your chosen wonder woman is Drow), a relationship make, does not.  Casanova couldn't tame the beast, and Xena just had a few too many bumps to the head.

What I would love to take part in is a relationship with an evil character that doesn't want to chop off your gentleman-hood and make jewlery out of it, yet won't convert to the ways of loveliness where most people would puke.

Hope this isn't off topic, but I was swayed by the loveliness of that portrait.

edit: Oh yea; Neutral Evil, goes in there somewhere amongst all that.

[Wounded_Lion]

What I would love to take part in is a relationship with an evil character that doesn't want to chop off your gentleman-hood and make jewlery out of it, yet won't convert to the ways of loveliness where most people would puke.

I agree!  Regardless of the poll results, Pai'Na will not be CG, NG, or LG.  Also, the PC will not be able to convince Pai'Na to become Good (as in the Viconia romance).  I don't see any reason that two Evil characters can't have a successful relationship as long as they respect each other's strength/cunning/etc.

Hope this isn't off topic, but I was swayed by the loveliness of that portrait.

No worries.

aWL

[Zulrik]

Just a thought, but why does evil have to love evil?

[Wounded_Lion]

I don't understand your question.  Both Neutral and Evil characters will be able to befriend and/or romance Pai'Na.  Chaotic Good characters may or may not be able to do so (I haven't decided yet... Thoughts?).

Do you think that a Neutral or Evil character such as Pai'Na could be attracted to a Lawful Good or Neutral Good character in any sense other than the physical?  Can you love someone whose sense of morality is directly opposed to your own?  Sure, you can knock boots all night long, but is there any real potential for a partnership?

aWL

EDIT: clarity

[Rastor]

Do you think that a Neutral or Evil character such as Pai'Na could be attracted to a Lawful Good or Neutral Good character in any sense other than the physical?  Can you love someone whose sense of morality is directly opposed to your own?  Sure, you can knock boots all night long, but is there any real potential for a partnership?

Well, there's the old saying that opposites attract...

I really think it depends on what evil/neutral we're talking about with romancing a lawful good or neutral good character:

Lawful Neutral - Certainly.
True Neutral - Probably wouldn't be long term potential for a romance with an LG character, but maybe with a NG one (and definitely with a CG one).
Chaotic Neutral - This type is extremely unreliable and so probably wouldn't be able to hold down a true romance with anyone of any alignment...

Lawful Evil - Definitely wouldn't romance a lawful good character, I doubt a LE character would romance a neutral good one either.
Neutral Evil - Probably would, actually.  Or at least, she'd certainly romance the player character.  Neutral evil characters tend to care only about their own advancement.  What could be a faster way to power than being the consort of a god?
Chaotic Evil - Another one that's totally unreliable and so wouldn't be a good romantic prospect.  If Pai'Na is CE, she might rip out the character's heart (literally) after sleeping with him.

Chaotic good characters tend to play by their own ethics, and so may realistically attempt a romance with any of these depending on what the ethics are.  I don't see long term potential in either of the chaotic ones (too erratic) or in Lawful Neutral though.

With that said, Bioware has no alignment restrictions at all on their female romances and most mods follow suit (off hand, Kitanya and Anomen are the only ones I can think of that do have alignment restrictions).

[Wounded_Lion]

@Rastor:

Interesting points.  I'll keep these comments in mind as I move foward but I differ somewhat in opinion.  I tend to think that Good/Evil has a greater impact on relationships than Lawful/Chaotic.

With that said, Bioware has no alignment restrictions at all on their female romances and most mods follow suit (off hand, Kitanya and Anomen are the only ones I can think of that do have alignment restrictions).

Yes, but Bioware convention can be undesirable.  By default, it is much less fun to play Evil or Neutral characters in BG2 (fewer roleplay options, fewer classes/kits, lesser quest rewards, inflated item prices, etc).  Bioware convention seems to disapprove of anything less than pure virtue.  Thus, I think it might be okay defy tradition.

Also, my experience of human relationships causes me to think that (to be realistic) alignment should play a role in determining whether or not a relationship is successful.

You and Zulrik have (intentionally or otherwise) raised an interesting question: Should romance paths be coded for unsuccessful partnerships?  In other words, should I create a path for incompatible PCs (such as LG characters) to attempt to romance Pai'Na but ultimately fail because of their differing lifestyles/views?  In one sense, this would be annoying to players (why waste game time and sacrifice other romances to pursue an inevitable failure?); however, it might be more realistic.

aWL

[Kae]

I'd be very interested to see a True Neutral NPC. Not everyone could pull it off, but it would be intriguing if you did.

On a related note, out of interest, how much of the mod is written?

[Wounded_Lion]

@Kae

I am currently playing BG2 and taking notes/writing material/etc as I go.  This is being done because I haven't played the game in some time, and because I'd like to gather public opinion before finalizing certain aspects of the character (I want people other than me to be able to enjoy Pai'Na, too!).  I'm also coding the skeleton of the mod (necessary things such as basic installation, etc).

I'm very good at improving existing stories or characters, tightening plots, etc.  However, I've never written a female character before now.  I am interested in possible collaboration with a female writer (or a male writer who is very good at writing female characters).  If anyone is interested, pm or e-mail me and we can discuss possibilities.  Most likely, I would send you a basic character sketch and an idea for an overall direction, send you prompts for various interjections and situations that I'd like to see happen, ask for your opinion on the ideas, and ask you to pitch me lines of dialogue and/or reactions for that situation.  This would not begin for some time (as I'd like to finish my game and continue to solicit public opinion on various aspects of the character through polls and discussions), so it's not a problem if you are currently occupied with another project or short of time.

aWL

[Wounded_Lion]

Btw: VOTE!

[Zulrik]

You and Zulrik have (intentionally or otherwise) raised an interesting question: Should romance paths be coded for unsuccessful partnerships?  In other words, should I create a path for incompatible PCs (such as LG characters) to attempt to romance Pai'Na but ultimately fail because of their differing lifestyles/views?  In one sense, this would be annoying to players (why waste game time and sacrifice other romances to pursue an inevitable failure?); however, it might be more realistic.

aWL

I was getting at something completly differant, but I LOVE that.

[ericp]

Is there some place where I could read Pai'Na's bio? If not, what's her background and personality (especially as compared to typical Drow)? Knowing the details would help a great deal in adding relevant and meaningful ideas to this mod project. I look forward to its development and final release!

Happy modding,
Eric

[Wounded_Lion]

@ericp

The next poll will address Pai'Na's origins (Underdark, surface, etc). 

aWL

[Wounded_Lion]

Allow me to clarify:

I am not asking which alignment you think is appropriate for Pai'Na as a character.  By default (in an unmodded game), she isn't defined to the extent necessary to answer such a question.  When the player enters her sanctuary, she shouts "Die, interlopers!" (or something similar) and assaults the party.  That is all.  The player learns nothing of the character or her intentions.  The only thing that can be said of her with a reasonable degree of certainty is:

Pai'Na is the half-Drow Druid caretaker of the spider nest beneath the Graveyard District.

I am asking:

In terms of alignment, in which direction would you like to see the character developed?

aWL

EDIT: clarity

[Rastor]

Is she defined as a half-drow?  I always thought she was a full one, in which case she'd almost certainly be neutral evil (like pretty much every drow in FR except for Drizzt is).

If she's half drow, then I can definitely see Chaotic Neutral since her nature may have made her an outcast both in the Underdark and in the surface.  Such people tend to be fierce individualists and thus CN would be best.

[Wounded_Lion]

@Rastor:

The relevant (sppain.cre) creature file defines her race as Half-Elf.  Considering her skin/hair color, affinity for spiders, and soundset, we can reasonably assume that the Elven part of her heritage is Drow.  Thus, she is half-Drow.

Note: The player is never exposed to this information; a change to full Drow heritage is possible if desired.

aWL

EDIT: note

[ericp]

Aha! With the clarification in mind, I'd like to see Pai'Na develop into Neutral Good, or into Chaotic Neutral (but the latter only if she proves to be a personality given to spontenaity, acting on whim as pleases her, but without necessarily being intentionally cruel).

There it is
- E

[Adia]

The relevant (sppain.cre) creature file defines her race as Half-Elf.  Considering her skin/hair color, affinity for spiders, and soundset, we can reasonably assume that the Elven part of her heritage is Drow.  Thus, she is half-Drow.

Note: The player is never exposed to this information; a change to full Drow heritage is possible if desired.

However, Unfinished Business makes this more obvious - Pai'Na and Viconia have a brief exchange where Viconia calls her a "mutt".  Will you be taking UB into account with the mod?

I think a half-drow would be far more interesting than more drow

[Wounded_Lion]

In Unfinished Business, Pai'Na asks you to retrieve Spider's Bane to prevent anyone from using the sword to destroy the spider population living beneath Amn.  Two inexperienced youths have taken the sword into the sewers on a foolish quest to become heroes.  When the player encounters the youths, they explain that they accidently broke the sword by hitting a wall with a poorly aimed swing.  The player returns the pieces to Pai'Na.  She departs with the shattered sword.

That's right.  They break a +2 enchanted sword BY ACCIDENT.

I respect the modders who took part in making Unfinished Business, but:

The Pai'Na NPC mod will NOT continue the story of the "The Pai'Na/Spider's Bane Quest" component of UB.

Note: Discussion of UB has now been given its own poll/thread.

aWL

EDIT: note

[Zukn]

 I'd say CN. The problem with most chaotic characters is they take that to the extreme. Chaotic does not mean completely insane, it can just means they hold no regard for laws. They can however see consequences.